Robert Cameron wrote:
> K Shea wrote:
> > Robert Cameron: I believe I may have asked you this before and I don't think you ever answered, but do you receive some sort of benefit (financial or otherwise) for shilling for the pay service? You sure seem anxious to part people from their money. Zap2it has changed their website maybe twice in the time I've been using zap2xml; that hardly seems like a concerted effort to push back against scraping their listings. And even if it gets to the point that you can't use Zap2it any longer, Zap2xml also works with TV Guide, and if that stops working there's always the free guide data transmitted over the air by the TV stations. I push back against paying for EPG data in part because of people like you who try to insinuate that people
might be doing something vaguely wrong by using a program like zap2xml, but without telling us the reason why you care so much. I've always despised the "you're a bad person if you don't buy our product" type of sales pitch; it almost guarantees I will
never under any circumstances buy that product or service.
> >
> > In most countries of the world there is no pay service for listings, and just because one happens to exist in the USA doesn't mean people are under any obligation to use it. If you want to use it that's fine, but you really don't need to be preaching to people who don't share your views about the necessity of supporting a for-profit schedule service.
>
> No, I receive no benefit. I feel that Tvheadend is a great product, and that promoting the use of questionable software that scrapes websites for proprietary data—especially when that data provider offers several channels, including one geared towards free software projects like Tvheadend—is just asking for trouble.
>
> There is a reason that Kodi's forum forbids the discussion of the use of addons that facilitate copyright infringement and illegal streaming. While they haven't considered Zap2It scrapers a banned addon yet, with the way Gracenote has been modifying their services worldwide, I believe it's only inevitable that it will happen, and probably rather soon.
>
> If Zap2It was truly meant to be a free service for your computer applications to obtain guide information, it would have a published API with well-defined endpoints. Instead you have a website that must be scraped and crawled across multiple links in order to get data of any use for a computer application ... doesn't sound too proper to me.
>
> (Also, while those outside the US may be fine, here in the US the case of Aaron Swartz is still fresh in some minds. He did what was technically legal by crawling and scraping information that he had authorized access to, but was using/distributing in a way that skirted published terms, and was charged with multiple hacking felonies and railroaded by the Justice department until he committed suicide.
>
> If you want to pursue the use of legally questionable software for your purposes, go ahead. But you ought to keep off the official sites and forums of software projects where your "data should be free so I'm not going to pay for it" attitude has no chance of affecting others using the software.)
Well, Robert, you started this. If you don't want me to talk about Zap2xml so much, then stop acting like a sales agent for the pay service. I'm not saying you are one, but sometimes you come across that way, and when you come along pontificating with your "maybe somehow you are doing something of questionable legality by using the FREE listings" speech, then certainly others have the right to jump in and offer their interpretation. You are not a representative or agent of any listings service as far as I know, so how would you know if they care if people use their listings? For all you know, they couldn't care less, and they certainly have never given any real indication that they object to such usage (changing the look and feel of their website means nothing here, it's more than likely totally coincidental). Even if there's some kind of boilerplate language in the T&C, which they seem to bury on their site, it's not like they force you to read it before using their site (even if you register for an account). And a lot of times there is language in T&C's that in real life no one pays any attention to, at least not until some extreme issue arises. And even if someday they did decide they don't like this type of usage, I doubt that they are going to jump right to the "let's sue our users" stage - I would expect that at first they would give some kind of notice or warning.
Why I don't get is why you seem so intent on starting these discussions. If you think this should be all under the radar, then stop making a big deal about it, and stop trying to persuade people to use the pay service. Because, every time you do, you invite someone else to jump in and talk about the free alternative. I doubt very many people share your sense of paranoia that something bad will happen to them (indeed, it would be a public relations nightmare if any of these services tried to sue a user without giving fair warning that they were doing some that the company considers wrong - note I said "the company", not YOU) and just because your sense of morality keeps you from doing anything that might even possibly somehow be the slightest bit questionable doesn't mean that everyone appreciates your preachy posts.
Zap2xml is certainly not the first software to scrape a web site for data, and it won't be the last. API's are a relatively new thing, and a big thing in certain segments of the programmer community, but they are not a one size fits all solution, and the fact that they exist do not mean that scraping will disappear. And again, this is free information, it's not like we are stealing something that the site charges money for, or breaking through someone's paywall. Neither of the supported listings services charge for listings. And you are only getting the same information you'd get by using any standard web browser.
As for Kodi's attitude, I doubt any of this is even on their radar. If they ever do ban mention of this type of software on their forums, I will be shocked, because that would be about the same thing as when Amazon banned Kodi because they thought it was a piracy tool. I realize they are walking a tightrope now because they have been accused of being piracy software so often that they have to avoid any appearance of evil, but keep in mind that the original Zap2xml was never intended to be a Kodi addon, and doesn't interface with Kodi in any way unless some third party creates software that uses it to provide guide data to Kodi, and even then Kodi would be more likely to ban discussion of that particular third party addon if for some reason they found it objectionable. Zap2xml is not a piracy tool (except maybe in your pretzel logic, which to me always seems like a sales pitch for the pay service) because it's not enabling the use of anything that's not freely available. There are many video addons in Kodi (even in the official addon repository) that scrape video sites such as YouTube to allow viewing videos; I'm surprised you aren't over there preaching about the evils of that. But no, you only seem to care about trying to make people pay for TV listings. Why?
And also, keep in mind that the software and services under discussion can also be used to get listings for Canadian channels (and if using TV Guide, also for Mexican channels, and channels in several other countries in the Western hemisphere). So even if you think there is a problem using such software in the U.S., it's still valid to talk about it, since it could be useful in other countries, many of which have no for-profit listings alternative.
Anyway, if you don't like this type of discussion, then stop promoting the pay service and it will probably pretty much disappear. I'm not saying not to ever mention it, but when you start trying to moralize that people should use it and not the free service for reasons that you have mostly conjured up in your head, that's where these types of discussions get started.
